RE: Holly Model and Set

Hi Holly,

The character lighting much better. Just compare it with your previous post, and see how much it has improved! It's great to see your progression. Hopefully I can give you a few pointers. I also want to write a bit of technical information, mostly on shadows and their settings, which can be useful for everyone, as I know some people are in the dark about this subject and I would have appreciated it when I started out. I will post it separately after this post, otherwise your post will be too long :)

It's best not to work at your lighting too much without shadows on as it is not giving you an accurate portrayal of the final image, and making it harder for you to judge. You currently have two sets of shadows that I can see. To imitate a sun lit scene you really should only have one shadow, from the key, like your reference. Blurring shadows in comp is not an option, you would be blurring the surfaces as well, but you only want to blur the shadow. Realistic sunlight has shadows that are sharp at the source of the object casting the shadow, that get more blurred the further away the shadow gets, although its over quite some distance (look at tree shadows, and observe how we don't really notice when we are under a cloud shadows because the shadow edges are so soft as the clouds are far away). You will only need a tiny amount of shadow blur, as you are not dealing with large scale objects, so it should be quite simple to do and it will add that softness your reference displays.

[Insert extract on shadows here]

I think you are nearly there with your lighting, but would like to see a bit more contrast. The warmth, intensity and direction of your key light is not really coming across as you have too much fill evening it out. Your skin looks much better, but still needs a bit more light on it and the sweater should not be burning out, so you need to work on the balance in your shading a little (does the sweater have any specular in it? If it does I would take it out) . I think that you can go stronger with the colours of your lights, you might be surprised with how dark and saturated you can go. From what you have shown me, I think you only really need two lights, for your main rig. See the image I created from your individual light images you posted last time. All I did was change the colour and intensities of your two lights and then added them on top of each other. I also painted in some shadows on your key light, as that really makes a difference. Remember that what is not lit by the key light, is lit by the fill light, so your shadows are 'fill' lit. Later on when you are happy with the main lighting, you would benefit from a few localised bounce lights for areas where the white sweater would be reflecting light around, and perhaps a light for her teeth. Consider using a light that only emits specular, for areas such as the legs.

The eyes do look better, they are glowing in the sunlight a bit, so possibly think about lighting them separately using a key light that is less intense (using light linking) or adjusting the shading.

Your occlusion pass does not look quite right to me. It is as if it has a facing ratio image combined with it? Or is it reflection occlusion instead of ambient occlusion? Either way, see the image below, this is more what it should look like. You want to adjust the settings (max distance, samples) so that it is less spread but not crunched (when the image looks compressed). This should fix the problems you are having as the occlusion should not be affecting the sweater other than in the areas of contact like under the arms.

The life ring would look better lit like the character. Unfortunately the reference you are looking at it all rim lit, it makes no logical sense to use that lighting unless you are planning on changing the character lighting to match. I think she will stand out enough for them to not look joined together. I am still not sure about the position of the life ring, as it is not cut off by her enough to have an impact, and its not cut off by the frame either. As for your composition, look at the lines of your pose compared with the Elvgren pose, and see if you can frame it better to get the same intimate feel.

Just tracking the camera should be fine, it would only really be a problem if you are rotating around the model, as you are lighting it from one view only.

Its always useful to have extra passes for defining the skin, and clothes, so that you can make last minute adjustments in comp. Make a new pass, assign constant shaders in red green and blue, to different body parts. Even if you don't use them in the end, its good to have options.

Good luck finishing off, feel free to make ask any questions. I am excited about seeing everyones updates.

Tessa

PS hope these images work, I have done some investigating.

regarding my images

I think I have figured out why my images are not working. I normally bring in my images at the beginning, and then put the text in, and I move the images around. If I don't move the images around, they (touch wood) work.... The ones I do move around don't. All I have to do is bring my images in, in the right order! Hurray. Has any one else noticed this or is it just me?

Cheers

Tessa

PS if you want me to re-post any of the images I have commented on, please ask. I don't mind emailing them to you if you prefer.

Jamie first Comp

Hi Tessa,

As there has been some discussion of Godrays I thought I had better post!


I decided to do a trial comp of one of my shots emphasising nostalgia and glory. I couldn't resist the godrays and actually quite like the result, I think with the theme of my project (the king rising to the challenging opponent and emerging victorious) it is an occasion where I think I can get away with it. I will be careful not to overdo it though and probably only use these effects on the shot where my narration tells of the heroism and resulting victory.

Oh, and I made the decision to move away from Final gather. All the reflection information I liked from the battlefield photos I took are being cast by a hidden constant dome now, and the soft indoor feel that i was getting just felt inappropriate and I decided to use lights instead. It just felt generally more appropriate and render times are obviously much better too.

Here's a render of the actual lighting without the volume effect, so any improvements you could suggest here would be great. I'm having a slight issue with getting my shadow pass out of xsi so I wasn't able to mask the occlusion within the shadows yet as you suggested earlier.


It has painterly romantic feel I think, which I'm quite comfortable with but I still have the option of cooling everything down and using more cool 'Scottish' colours. I did a few tests of how this approach may look. I still think I prefer the overly dramatic top picture, it has an almost fantasy over the top feel which I like.


Anyway, any thoughts you may have will be really helpful at this stage as there is still a bit of time to implement changes.

Thanks Tessa,

Jamie.

Holly - Model and Set

Hi Tessa,

Have posted you a previous post to see if it opens, it does, so I will continue on from there.

Forgot to mention that I have put a simple blue background in the comp, but I don't intend to use this one, I will take reference from your first suggestion of how to paint the background so as not to lose the shape of the model, and also to put a horizon line in

I wanted to say thank you for all your advice on compostion. I still think this needs abit of work, but I think it's getting there. Have tried to tighten in the frame, she probably still looks too central. I'm hoping that the life ring and the suitcase weight her like a triangle. I really like the way her legs cut into the life ring, have taken inspiration from Elvgren on this one, my only concern is that she is not separate enough, colourwise, from the life ring and hence looks like she and the life ring are the same mass.

I have also tried to light the life ring by taking inspiration from Elvgren's painting, by using a strong rim light on it. Do you think this is working with the lighting on the model? I realise that the life ring is looking abit dark from the front, however I'm not sure how to light the life ring from the front without taking away the effect of the rim light.



I have lit the set and model separately:


You advised me against lighting set-ups for an animated camera, however I would really like to track the camera up close to the model's face (please see first image of the lead up to the close up of the face) - I don't intend to rotate around the model - does this sound simple enough?

I really like the lighting set-up that you advised me and I feel that the warm lights have really added a cheerful feel to the model, however I feel as though the face needs to be lit better, but because she is facing away I am struggling to get the flow of light which is traveling up her front to reach the whole of her face. I tried lighting the face from front on, but this seemed to take away the nice shading which is on the side of the sweater.

Do you think that the eyes look better - one still has two highlights, will work on this. I tried to add SSS to the eye, but I just couldn't get a singular strong highlight, and it looked like it was glowing, so I gave up on that one and just used a sphere a transparent sphere as the cornea. I still think these are a bit too white, but will keep adding to them.

You probably don't need this but I thought I would include images of the separate lights I have used for my model. Have just realised that I have no rim light, sorry I thought I did


Finally you mentioned previously that the skirt's shadows need to be more blurred, not too sure how to do this, should I blur them in comp?

Looking forward to your response - really love the way the lighting is bringing my model to life

Many Thanks

Holly

Holly - First attempt at Comping

Hi Tessa,

Many thanks for your previous response,

Just testing this image out to see if it opens. It's my first comp - it looks ugly, but that's fine for a first attempt, sure I will improve.

I tried doing the Ambient Occlusion pass and inverting it so that I warm up the shadows(as you advised). I think this is beginning to work for the skirt, I feel it is giving the skirt a tactile feel. However I don't like what it's doing to the sweater - perhaps I should do a separate AO pass just for the sweater and refine the AO settings so I can really warm up the shadows on the sweater.

Hope the images open,

Holly

can people expand my images?

Does anyone know why I don't seem to be able to expand the images I put up? Are they working for you guys? I upload them all as large, I don't see why some are working and some aren't?

tessa

RE: Lies' Victorian Woman Project

Hi Lies,

Welcome back! I am happy that the other posts have helped, and it is good to see that your using Nuke to do some compositing. I can see lots of work has gone into your excellently detailed model, it deserves some lighting to match it.

Horror movies tend to use muted (desaturated) or monochromatic colours, duller lighting and atmospheric fog. I think this is what you mean when you say your image looks gothic. In some ways this is a more realistic portrayal of a night time lit scene, in film this might be used to show the harsh reality of a situation, but I don't think that is what your looking for. To get a sickly look they tend to use greener blues for mid-tones and yellows or pale greens for highlights. They often use black, either by having strong key lighting, casting black shadows, using black sets, costumes or props, or just to have darkness surrounding to frame the action. Darkness is the unknown and it can be scary! Any other more vibrant colours are used to attract the viewers attention, red is particularly good in horror, especially is it contrasts brilliantly with green, and it is the colour of blood!!! You need to avoid some of these filmic devices to move away from the gothic feel you have at the moment.

Volumetrics are often used to create atmosphere, but make sure that you think about what it is saying, and use it for a reason. In the Gladiator reference there is a shot when the protagonist is just about to (but consequently doesn't) kill his enemy in the colosseum, I think the use of god rays is to show the almight and righteous nature of his role, as he is also defying the wicked emperor at the time. In the Lord of the rings poster, it adds mystery, along with the green cast and puts emphasis on Gandalf, who was previously killed, which in my mind glorifies him (is he the saviour?) In Citizen Kane, the volumetrics are used to add atmosphere and intensity to what would have ordinarily been uninteresting. You can sense the pressure in the small enclosed cinema, where these men have been trapped working and smoking. In the Michael Jackson 'Thriller' film, there is an eerie blue fog, we associate fog or mist with scary films, possibly because, like darkness it represents the unknown.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/mrbungle/339646825/

http://www.worldofstock.com/closeups/NTR1857.php

In an outdoor lit scene you would normally only see volumetrics if there is fog, or city smog, another unsavory thought. For your project I think that a glow would be more appropriate, as glows add warmth to a light rather that mystifying it.

For a warmer, more romantic feel you might want to try using the contrasting colours orange and blue. I have done a quick rough paint over, to show you the instant difference it can make. I have not been subtle, I want to show you a dramatic change, and I think it really does add happy warmth and 'Disney' innocence to it. The more saturated you make the lighting, the warmer and happier it's going to feel. Although this is not very realistic it does feel believable to me and I think this is much more like your reference. You can still use darkness, but contrast it with warm vibrant key lighting. As this is a modelling project, and you are going to want to see the model from all angles, you probably want to light it so that you can see the detail on the model.

To really feel the key light source you will need to make it stronger, and then you can pick out the details of the dress with a well placed directional fill light. I would bring your rim light around a tad more to accentuate the shape of the model. You probably want to light each shot separately taking one rig and then tweaking the lights on a shot by shot basis, remember what I said about lighting to camera. You might feel that you need some context for the rim light, as currently the black background implies there is no other light source. Even just a hint of a moon should do the trick. When lighting keep everything exposed (that means no big areas where it is burning out, and no black areas) so that you have some control in comp, but also try to keep the light/dark contrast.

As you have so few lights you might want to consider rendering your lights out on separate passes, and colourising them in comp. I find it quicker but it is not for everybody, so don't feel you have to. Also render out an occlusion pass to remove any unwanted fill or rim light, another option is to have those lights casting soft shadows.

Your floor is looking flat at the moment but when you a put displacement map on it, to define the slabs and add variation, the light should pick it out nicely. You also might want to consider using a specular map on the floor so that you get a different quality of shading on the slabs compared with the cracks.

I would think about rendering the lantern separately, so that you can experiment with it a bit. I would also look at turning off shadow casting on the lantern, and just use occlusion to make it sit better on the ground. Modern street lighting tends to be bright and when you take a photo all you see is the glow of the light. Old victorian gas lamps may have created more of a sillouette, you might want to look for some reference. Possibly the scale of the texture is a little big in places, making the lantern base look a bit like a miniature compared to the character.

One final note on composition. I think you will create a better frame for your models if you move them slightly to the left. Because you have two objects of interest, the lantern and the character, you want to make clear which is more important, and I think that keeping your character more central works better.... although it is best that she is not actually central as that can seem unsettling (see "The Orphanage", and 'There will be blood" posters on the earlier reference)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composition_(visual_arts)

I know you intend to use more that one camera angle, so think about making an interesting composition for every shot. As you have such strong lighting you do not need a central composition, as you are directing the audiences eye to the character. Use your imagination and see what you come up with.

Hopefully that is enough to get you inspired.

Tessa